Your Thoughts on Old Age and Death

jcl wrote:

UltimateContrarian wrote:

jcl wrote:

UltimateContrarian wrote:

jcl wrote:

UltimateContrarian wrote:

nanox wrote:

UltimateContrarian wrote:

nicki wrote:

UltimateContrarian wrote: Oh dont tell me that, It is an inconvenience even though, I love my grandparents, but it is degrading, they themselves feel it is degrading, I see them cry and their faces filled with shame as they look down on me, while I am on the floor cleaning their shit and their piss. I know, and I can see in their eyes, my grandmother in her 80 and my grandfather in his 90's. that they themselves would take their lives if they had some strength left in their arms to strangle themselves in bed. I too, would never ever want to reach that point, seeing them, and feel that it is my moral obligation to kill myself before I reach that point..

Maybe my grandmother didn't feel as degraded and ashamed as your grandparents, because I didn't make her feel that way.. Js

I didn't have to make them feel ashamed even if I wanted to, the fact that they shit themselves, and cries of agony, have delirious episodes, and wounds that never seem to heal is degrading enough. And how dare you suggest that? You owe me an apology.

One set of standards for everyone and another set for you.

AaronAl wrote: So what if you are offended? I am offended by many things, but you have to have the maturity not to react on every single thing you find offensive emotionally. Ignore it and move forward instead of calling people out because you've got your feelings wounded. You wanna protect your feelings? If you have the vulnerability of a child, then this place is not for you.

AaronAl wrote: It was a perfectly [sic] good observation and it was unnecessary for her [sic] to apologize about something that perfectly makes sense.

I worked in hospice for many, many years counseling people through the dying process and providing comfort care in their final days/hours/moments. The only people who ever begged for death were the ones in horrible pain and all I could offer them was morphine and a hand to hold. Most people maintained their dignity and found a dark kind of humor in returning to a state similar to the one they came into the world in.

I feel like your twisted view and feelings about illness and death may have been projected onto your grandparents. Did they actually ever tell you they wished for death? I have experienced someone wishing for death and it was never over their dignity, but because of severe pain. Most people clung to life as hard as they could, no matter the level of care required.

And those who were embarrassed about needing to be cleaned up were easily reassured and comforted with a few kind words of acceptance. You sure they were crying because they needed to be cleaned up or were they crying because of what your unconscious body language and reaction to having to clean up after them was communicating?

We were not talking about ideas, of which no one should take offense, there are stupid ideas, and people who act on those bad ideas through violence are being stupid. We were talking about my personal relationship with my grandparents of which you do have not a single idea, thus you are not fit to talk about it. Although I know you are so stupid to grasp the distinction, just like any other topic.

.............aaaaaaand cue the ad hominem.

Are you too stupid too to know the distinction? Oh my there are lots of you...

....aaannnd again.

I never participated in your debates but I was always observing. Even though I am an atheist and share many of your views, I can't even back you up cause you say so many nonsensical and contradictory things. Every time your argument is brought to scrutiny, you just cower back and spew out insults out of emotional distress. This was especially evident when you couldn't even reply to nanox anymore and just cried like a baby.

I keep seeing the same pattern from you. All you do is vomit out loose pieces of contradictory statements and then cry whenever it is challenged. You won't get the attention you are seeking here, man. Go meditate or something.

Just because you are an atheist, it doesn't mean I wish you to be my ally. I don't.
Nonsensical and contradictory? Well, demonstrate it, otherwise those are just petty words.

I actually am getting more attention than I can handle, thank you.
Don't tell me what to do with my time, cos you absolutely have no power to influence that, and you are being stupid for assuming that you do.

Great, because likewise, I do not wish to be associated with you.
Other people have already demonstrated on multiple occasions. And judging from the trend, you'll just end up ignoring it anyway, so there's literally zero incentive for me to do so.

It was only a suggestion to meditate, cause you exhibit some behavior that meditation can help with. I don't really care what you do, either way. If concluding that I am stupid from this short exchange is what makes you happy, then I'll be happy to play the part

Oh I am not as stupid as you are. I know you can be intelligent or smart in many other things. Stop feeling that your whole personality is being persecuted just because we disagree on this particular topic, and you being very stupid at this.

Oh, and don't think this interaction here could affect my life in general. I do know how to compartmentalize things.

And my behavior, is the very behavior one should have in the midst of stupidity, I do not draw pleasure from this, I have many sources to draw happiness from, not from this. And if this whole interaction makes you happy, then something is terribly wrong with you.

nanox wrote:

nicki wrote:

nanox wrote: I feel like your twisted view and feelings about illness and death may have been projected onto your grandparents. Did they actually ever tell you they wished for death? I have experienced someone wishing for death and it was never over their dignity, but because of severe pain. Most people clung to life as hard as they could, no matter the level of care required.

And those who were embarrassed about needing to be cleaned up were easily reassured and comforted with a few kind words of acceptance. You sure they were crying because they needed to be cleaned up or were they crying because of what your unconscious body language and reaction to having to clean up after them was communicating?

Thank you! You really took the words out of my mouth just now..

The only thing I have left to say to the OP is that maybe treating them differently might be worth a shot..
See it as a small social experiment.. I'm certain that their perspective would change for the better as soon as you give off another vibe..

From what I've seen so far you just seem to dismiss every single thought you don't agree with, without even taking the time to consider whether or not there might be some truth behind them which makes debating and offering some advice pretty useless in my opinion..

And it is hard to imagine anyone feeling comforted and cared for by someone who treats everyone with such judgmental disdain.

Oh not everyone really, just a number of people who are worthy of disdain, And you are among them.

MikeyC wrote:

UltimateContrarian wrote:

Sunderlin wrote: I think growing old should be something we learn to accept.
We shouldn't be ashamed of anything we have to go thru.
Instead we should embrace it as just another important phase in life.
(It's selfish? You cant give or receive love?) Actually it's not at all selfish.
Our views of selfish , maybe we need to change what our views of what selfish really is.
Being in pain and unable to do things, all you can do is give love and receive love...
When we die, we go on and look back at the lessons learned of what was really important all this time.
Then we cling onto that forever.

What do you mean "when we die, we go on and look ba...."? This is kinda stupid. Isn't death the absence of experience? Or do you think this life here is just a dress-rehearsal for the next,,,which no one really knows whether there is one, do you?

Just to clarify, she was saying that in our final moments (i.e when we die) we look back at our life lessons and find what was most important out of it all, not after death, but you know... ha derrr, lets dismiss 90% of people's comments as stupid. That seems to be your forte

It is stupid, she wasn't talking about final moments, she is talking about clinging to it forever. I do not see anything that resembles the finality of death in her comment. Yeah it is stupid, and if 90 percent of people's comments are truthfully stupid, then lets have the courage to say things as they are.

UltimateContrarian wrote:

jcl wrote:
Great, because likewise, I do not wish to be associated with you.
Other people have already demonstrated on multiple occasions. And judging from the trend, you'll just end up ignoring it anyway, so there's literally zero incentive for me to do so.

It was only a suggestion to meditate, cause you exhibit some behavior that meditation can help with. I don't really care what you do, either way. If concluding that I am stupid from this short exchange is what makes you happy, then I'll be happy to play the part

Oh I am not as stupid as you are. I know you can be intelligent or smart in many other things. Stop feeling that your whole personality is being persecuted just because we disagree on this particular topic, and you being very stupid at this.

Oh, and don't think this interaction here could affect my life in general. I do know how to compartmentalize things.

And my behavior, is the very behavior one should have in the midst of stupidity, I do not draw pleasure from this, I have many sources to draw happiness from, not from this. And if this whole interaction makes you happy, then something is terribly wrong with you.

Oh seems like I forgot one other quirk you have. You seem to project your own hurt feelings onto others. I have not displayed anything remotely resembling "butthurt" about anything you've said. I do not feel my whole personality is being persecuted. I do not care about one random guy's weak attack on me by calling me "stupid" repeatedly. You seem like you feel like you are being persecuted though, lashing out at so many people.

I already know you won't absorb anything from your interactions on this whole forum in general. You don't know how to listen deeply. You pick up on whatever your mind can jack off to and run with it.

That's a leap to say this whole interaction makes me happy. Though, I do take pleasure from confirming your tendencies with every reply. If I were to summarize what information you've communicated over the past few replies, I think it'd go something like this:

stupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopid

nanox wrote:

UltimateContrarian wrote:

nanox wrote:

UltimateContrarian wrote:

jcl wrote:

UltimateContrarian wrote:

jcl wrote:

UltimateContrarian wrote:

nanox wrote:

UltimateContrarian wrote:

nicki wrote:

UltimateContrarian wrote: Oh dont tell me that, It is an inconvenience even though, I love my grandparents, but it is degrading, they themselves feel it is degrading, I see them cry and their faces filled with shame as they look down on me, while I am on the floor cleaning their shit and their piss. I know, and I can see in their eyes, my grandmother in her 80 and my grandfather in his 90's. that they themselves would take their lives if they had some strength left in their arms to strangle themselves in bed. I too, would never ever want to reach that point, seeing them, and feel that it is my moral obligation to kill myself before I reach that point..

Maybe my grandmother didn't feel as degraded and ashamed as your grandparents, because I didn't make her feel that way.. Js

I didn't have to make them feel ashamed even if I wanted to, the fact that they shit themselves, and cries of agony, have delirious episodes, and wounds that never seem to heal is degrading enough. And how dare you suggest that? You owe me an apology.

One set of standards for everyone and another set for you.

AaronAl wrote: So what if you are offended? I am offended by many things, but you have to have the maturity not to react on every single thing you find offensive emotionally. Ignore it and move forward instead of calling people out because you've got your feelings wounded. You wanna protect your feelings? If you have the vulnerability of a child, then this place is not for you.

AaronAl wrote: It was a perfectly [sic] good observation and it was unnecessary for her [sic] to apologize about something that perfectly makes sense.

I worked in hospice for many, many years counseling people through the dying process and providing comfort care in their final days/hours/moments. The only people who ever begged for death were the ones in horrible pain and all I could offer them was morphine and a hand to hold. Most people maintained their dignity and found a dark kind of humor in returning to a state similar to the one they came into the world in.

I feel like your twisted view and feelings about illness and death may have been projected onto your grandparents. Did they actually ever tell you they wished for death? I have experienced someone wishing for death and it was never over their dignity, but because of severe pain. Most people clung to life as hard as they could, no matter the level of care required.

And those who were embarrassed about needing to be cleaned up were easily reassured and comforted with a few kind words of acceptance. You sure they were crying because they needed to be cleaned up or were they crying because of what your unconscious body language and reaction to having to clean up after them was communicating?

We were not talking about ideas, of which no one should take offense, there are stupid ideas, and people who act on those bad ideas through violence are being stupid. We were talking about my personal relationship with my grandparents of which you do have not a single idea, thus you are not fit to talk about it. Although I know you are so stupid to grasp the distinction, just like any other topic.

.............aaaaaaand cue the ad hominem.

Are you too stupid too to know the distinction? Oh my there are lots of you...

....aaannnd again.

I never participated in your debates but I was always observing. Even though I am an atheist and share many of your views, I can't even back you up cause you say so many nonsensical and contradictory things. Every time your argument is brought to scrutiny, you just cower back and spew out insults out of emotional distress. This was especially evident when you couldn't even reply to nanox anymore and just cried like a baby.

I keep seeing the same pattern from you. All you do is vomit out loose pieces of contradictory statements and then cry whenever it is challenged. You won't get the attention you are seeking here, man. Go meditate or something.

Just because you are an atheist, it doesn't mean I wish you to be my ally. I don't.
Nonsensical and contradictory? Well, demonstrate it, otherwise those are just petty words.

I actually am getting more attention than I can handle, thank you.
Don't tell me what to do with my time, cos you absolutely have no power to influence that, and you are being stupid for assuming that you do.

Because your unraveling emotional state (which I can only assume is a drunken fit) is now lashing out at a completely innocent bystander. You're angry with me and now lumping him into it. He's a chill guy and you're attacking him for no reason.

I just realized...you're a thundering looney.

Oh lol, you have always been the one making emotional appeals, right from the start. Come on, be honest for just one time.
I have remained absolutely objective on the points and arguments I have presented, although, I do not ignore personal attacks, and I do respond.

Attack him for no reason? I have my reasons, it is actually self-explanatory in the comment I made for him.
Your perception of him being a chill-guy simply do not interest me, neither does it help your argument or the point your trying to make.

Well I do not really care what you think of me, and I know you do not care if I call you a TROLL.

If you didn't care you wouldn't cry and flip out every time I criticized you.

Trololololololol

Oh, that is exaggerated, I am just being resistant to trolls like you. Which I am sure is a perfectly healthy reaction.

Tonight's entertainment brought to you by Nanox. A meow meow clique feature presentation.

jcl wrote:

UltimateContrarian wrote:

jcl wrote:
Great, because likewise, I do not wish to be associated with you.
Other people have already demonstrated on multiple occasions. And judging from the trend, you'll just end up ignoring it anyway, so there's literally zero incentive for me to do so.

It was only a suggestion to meditate, cause you exhibit some behavior that meditation can help with. I don't really care what you do, either way. If concluding that I am stupid from this short exchange is what makes you happy, then I'll be happy to play the part

Oh I am not as stupid as you are. I know you can be intelligent or smart in many other things. Stop feeling that your whole personality is being persecuted just because we disagree on this particular topic, and you being very stupid at this.

Oh, and don't think this interaction here could affect my life in general. I do know how to compartmentalize things.

And my behavior, is the very behavior one should have in the midst of stupidity, I do not draw pleasure from this, I have many sources to draw happiness from, not from this. And if this whole interaction makes you happy, then something is terribly wrong with you.

Oh seems like I forgot one other quirk you have. You seem to project your own hurt feelings onto others. I have not displayed anything remotely resembling "butthurt" about anything you've said. I do not feel my whole personality is being persecuted. I do not care about one random guy's weak attack on me by calling me "stupid" repeatedly. You seem like you feel like you are being persecuted though, lashing out at so many people.

I already know you won't absorb anything from your interactions on this whole forum in general. You don't know how to listen deeply. You pick up on whatever your mind can jack off to and run with it.

That's a leap to say this whole interaction makes me happy. Though, I do take pleasure from confirming your tendencies with every reply. If I were to summarize what information you've communicated over the past few replies, I think it'd go something like this:

stupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopid

Yup, if somebody suggests that my grandparents were exaggerating their condition, if somebody downplays their suffering, if somebody suggests that I have made them feel even more degraded, if somebody tells me that I do not have the capacity for giving love and comfort to my grandparents of which they definitely not have witnessed or seen me do, because they disagree on me on many different topics, of which I have handled objectively, and resisted for so long to lash out in the same manner; then I think that they have made it very personal and it is my obligation to react the same way I am reacting now.

My grandparents when they were deteriorating rapidly, have been shun away by their relatives, by their own family, by their own sons and daughters and insisted that they be taken to a home for the aged. I could not out of the life of me allow that, I could not allow my grandparents be taken cared of by someone else and and risk them being a subject to the possible abuses being done in those institutions. I put them under my care and to this very day, and try to give them what normal life they are still capable of experiencing. Now, should I be offended when someone makes a comment that I am doing the opposite? I guess I do have the right to take offense. Do I reply in kind when being dealt with this? I do not. Who could? Is this one of the cases where one should be accused of ad hominem for simply reacting these personal attacks, and a deep one that begs not to be ignored? No. Shame on these people.

Hmm being total honest here.. I'm not scared of any of them.

I'm just kinda worried to spend my days alone, have anyone to spend my last days with. That's all.

jcl wrote:
Oh seems like I forgot one other quirk you have. You seem to project your own hurt feelings onto others. I have not displayed anything remotely resembling "butthurt" about anything you've said. I do not feel my whole personality is being persecuted. I do not care about one random guy's weak attack on me by calling me "stupid" repeatedly. You seem like you feel like you are being persecuted though, lashing out at so many people.

I already know you won't absorb anything from your interactions on this whole forum in general. You don't know how to listen deeply. You pick up on whatever your mind can jack off to and run with it.

That's a leap to say this whole interaction makes me happy. Though, I do take pleasure from confirming your tendencies with every reply. If I were to summarize what information you've communicated over the past few replies, I think it'd go something like this:

stupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopid

The anime version

UltimateContrarian wrote:

jcl wrote:

UltimateContrarian wrote:

jcl wrote:
Great, because likewise, I do not wish to be associated with you.
Other people have already demonstrated on multiple occasions. And judging from the trend, you'll just end up ignoring it anyway, so there's literally zero incentive for me to do so.

It was only a suggestion to meditate, cause you exhibit some behavior that meditation can help with. I don't really care what you do, either way. If concluding that I am stupid from this short exchange is what makes you happy, then I'll be happy to play the part

Oh I am not as stupid as you are. I know you can be intelligent or smart in many other things. Stop feeling that your whole personality is being persecuted just because we disagree on this particular topic, and you being very stupid at this.

Oh, and don't think this interaction here could affect my life in general. I do know how to compartmentalize things.

And my behavior, is the very behavior one should have in the midst of stupidity, I do not draw pleasure from this, I have many sources to draw happiness from, not from this. And if this whole interaction makes you happy, then something is terribly wrong with you.

Oh seems like I forgot one other quirk you have. You seem to project your own hurt feelings onto others. I have not displayed anything remotely resembling "butthurt" about anything you've said. I do not feel my whole personality is being persecuted. I do not care about one random guy's weak attack on me by calling me "stupid" repeatedly. You seem like you feel like you are being persecuted though, lashing out at so many people.

I already know you won't absorb anything from your interactions on this whole forum in general. You don't know how to listen deeply. You pick up on whatever your mind can jack off to and run with it.

That's a leap to say this whole interaction makes me happy. Though, I do take pleasure from confirming your tendencies with every reply. If I were to summarize what information you've communicated over the past few replies, I think it'd go something like this:

stupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopidstupidstoopidstopid

Yup, if somebody suggests that my grandparents were exaggerating their condition, if somebody downplays their suffering, if somebody suggests that I have made them feel even more degraded, if somebody tells me that I do not have the capacity for giving love and comfort to my grandparents of which they definitely not have witnessed or seen me do, because they disagree on me on many different topics, of which I have handled objectively, and resisted for so long to lash out in the same manner; then I think that they have made it very personal and it is my obligation to react the same way I am reacting now.

My grandparents when they were deteriorating rapidly, have been shun away by their relatives, by their own family, by their own sons and daughters and insisted that they be taken to a home for the aged. I could not out of the life of me allow that, I could not allow my grandparents be taken cared of by someone else and and risk them being a subject to the possible abuses being done in those institutions. I put them under my care and to this very day, and try to give them what normal life they are still capable of experiencing. Now, should I be offended when someone makes a comment that I am doing the opposite? I guess I do have the right to take offense. Do I reply in kind when being dealt with this? I do not. Who could? Is this one of the cases where one should be accused of ad hominem for simply reacting these personal attacks, and a deep one that begs not to be ignored? No. Shame on these people.

There you go, something with a bit more substance.

It's fine to feel this way....however, I have not seen anyone suggest your grandparents were exaggerating their condition or downplaying their suffering. I have only seen people wonder whether you were accidentally projecting your grim thoughts visibly to your grandparents, and if so to be more wary about it. Like you said, no one has been there to observe how you interact with your grandparents. We can only draw from what you lay out in your posts. No one suggested you are incapable of giving love and comfort to your grandparents. But if you took offense at anything that was said (whether or not you added in your self-perceived criticism), that's fine. You wanna lash out, that's fine too. Notice how I never said anything along the lines of "stop being mad bro lmao". I've merely made the observation that you cry foul when people are offended by you, when you yourself are subject to the same offense. Being emotional's fine, as long as you also allow others to be and do claim that you are immune to it.

And that's great of you to take up the care of your grandparents. If you know that you have done your best do take care of them, and when you try to relay that information you are dismissed, who gives a poop? It's fine to feel mad that people misinterpret you, but you'll have to reflect on why is it they came to that conclusion in the first place. Maybe it was the way you communicated, or specific phrases that blurred your intended message. Make peace with whom you can. If it's not possible just move along. You seem to enjoy debating, which is cool. Just gotta get past the fact that criticism to your arguments don't necessarily have to be taken as an attack to you.